63 Contactless vs Chip & PIN vs Cash

[jno]

You buy something in the shop, how do you prefer to pay?

Contactless, Chip & PIN, good ol' cash or don't you care?

[Arch Stanton]

I generally don't care, I'll do it however, but for speed and shear laziness I tend to use contactless.

[Portland Road]

A mixture. Larger purchases, e.g. household goods I use chip & pin. I also tend to use chip & pin when refuelling the car.

Everyday small items from local shops like milk etc I still pay in cash.

[jno]

Now then, I must confess - I despise contactless which is one of the reasons for this week's death match.

I see no real reason for this at all. It is sold on the premise of being "hassle free" but honestly, it takes seconds to type a PIN in. Also, a hotel room of mine was burgled recently, just using a fake card. With contactless, I just don't feel that the card is safe, even if it is just a maximum spend of say 30 quid. It might be sold as "hassle free" but guaranteed what won't be "hassle free" is sitting in a phone queue to India trying to get your cash back that has been taken off it without you knowing.

Plenty of cases of contactless being abused already:

www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/02/17/if-you-have-a-contactless-card-watch-out-for-this-scam/
www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cardsloans/article-3537787/Could-5-95-card-protect-wallet-fraudsters-trying-skim-contactless-payment-details.html

Contactless (as do any cards) also contribute more towards the end of cash I feel - I am not so sure that is such a good thing because ultimately the banks will know more about our spending patterns. Take cash out of the hole in the wall and I can spend it more or less anonymously. I can see cash is old school, and people are required to count it which is time, which is more money. However, the facility to receive card payments is also paid for by the retailer, which ultimately (I feel) translates into higher prices in order that this is compensated.

I told my Austrian bank "turn off the contactless please" - I had to jump through hoops to get it, they looked at me like I was from the dark ages (yes, I know, I am) but there should ALWAYS be an option to say "NO" to an unproven emerging technology for those who don't want it. Even Microsoft gives you more notice of "change is coming" that having contactless forced upon you like a lot of banks are doing.

[Portland Road]

I like how chip n pin (for a comparatively modern format) still has a kind of 'definite' feel to it, i.e. you use your hardware (the card) and input a number yourself.

I feel that contactless subtly takes from you and is too 'silent'. It could be more prone to erroneous transactions.

[mrschisholm]

I like both PIN and cash. I haven't used contactless nor do I want to. PIN and cash are both fast enough for me.

[ace5150]

Cold cash for everyday use. Credit card on everything else, and like mias, I pay it off every month so no interest charges. Online on eBay its PayPal as I have a very healthy account from selling all my snide items!
With credit card, I use chip and pin, not too sure about contactless to be honest.

[ace5150]

My local chip shop has done it for me as well as Boots the Chemist.
Scary considering NO ID or pin required, they just scan your card.

[Arch Stanton]

Aug 8, 2016 8:34:59 GMT jno said:

However, the facility to receive card payments is also paid for by the retailer, which ultimately (I feel) translates into higher prices in order that this is compensated.

but there should ALWAYS be an option to say "NO" to an unproven emerging technology for those who don't want it. Even Microsoft gives you more notice of "change is coming" that having contactless forced upon you like a lot of banks are doing.

I believe the retailer pays more money for banking cash than for electronic payments. So if you want to go down that route, it's people that pay in cash that drive up higher prices!

This whirlwind emerging technology is almost a decade old now in the UK (introduced 2007)..

[jno]

I thought the retailer paid for the device then a certain % per £100 (or set amount). Other than getting a security firm transporting a large amount of cash in a van Sweeney-style, how can cold hard cash, walked from the shop and paid into a bank account cost more than Visa/Mastercard continually skimming orf their % every month? I could be wrong as I am not and expert here but I would be interested in like for like comparison of say small retailer and a supermarket.

Other than the flaws in contactless that banks don't like to talk about, another gripe is that any card payment generates a piece of information and as such can be used to track where and what we spend our money on - and these most certainly are tracked.

I know this for a fact as I had a long call with a credit card company this summer as they wrongly thought my card was being misused, I called them after they asked me to, sat in the usual sh1tty British phone queue as you do, and on the spot they started firing ridiculous questions at me about where I had been spending money in the previous two weeks.

Now then, I appreciate there should be security systems in place, but having answered the standard 'security' questions to verify my identity they then persisted to ask my life history in the 14 days prior.

I didn't realise that owning a credit card meant you had to set time aside to discuss your life history over the phone. I love going to the UK every summer - holiday with free 20 minute phone call with an incomprehensible Asian guy on the other end of the dog, this year that totally wasted my time and proved only that THEIR over sensitive system was sh*tting a brick because I had spent 'more than usual' despite being well within my limit.

All very intrusive, which in itself was proof that card payments cause a lot of aggro for honest customers like myself when banks tell us this technology will make our lives EASIER. They don't mention such unnecessary phone calls which waste everyone's time and aggravate honest customers.

The reason they were wetting themselves was I had spent 'more than normal' though they never admitted this. They can only know this fact as a result of computer software tracking and analysing trends in my payment history = tracking my activity.

The fact I had continously logged in from overseas to pay my credit card was never mentioned, so it is pretty obvious to me as an IT guy that the software is focused totally on 'spending trend'. Woman the phone was getting all high and mighty with me cleary going through her training procedures wasting my holiday time as best she could trying to work out if I was a criminal as I spent 20 quid at Sports Direct.



I appreciate there should be security but my bank were way OTT with the intrustive questions - none of this would have happened if I'd paid in cash.

I have seen many retailers in blighty also saying "minimum payment" for card transactions but likewise (which is also nonsense), particularly here in Euroland retailers not accepting large notes as they simply don't have enough float (change) to handle it. I think where I am 200 and 500 Euro notes are reserved for property sales and drug dealers.

Another whacky story - when I visited Terry in Düsseldorf recently, he wanted to withdraw money from an ATM. If he didn't use his own bank, he got charged but me as Johnny Foreigner with an Austrian ATM card could use ANY ATM at any bank and there was NO charge. That's logical - charge the locals who use the machine often but don't charge visitors. Alternatively, drive over the border, get a bank account and always use a foreign card. What a load of nonsense - just like foil lined wallets to protect us all from contacless skimming - are banks giving them away for free too?

Rant over.



I understand Sweden is practically cashless and only card but interestingly Japan is mainly cash.

[Arch Stanton]

Banks can charge businesses on the £ volume and frequency volume of Cheques, Cash and electronic payments jno. At the moment there is a big push toward the digital proposition by most banks as a way of cutting costs, also fighting crime - money laundering etc etc.. Therefore these digital charges tend to be lower.

I here what you are saying about the card fraud and you didn't like having to be 'what you felt as interrogated' by the sounds of it?, but there're lots of cases where people are more than happy for the bank to protect their money and would rather the bank get hold of them or temporarily block their card rather than it gets fleeced by some online fraudster.

And I agree it can be desperately frustrating contacting foreign call centres.


There are also many other reasons why card fraud is flagged up on accounts:
Certain retailers can set it off. If they are subject (not necessarily through any fault of their own) to being used repeatedly by fraudsters. And to be honest it wouldn't surprise me if Chav Direct falls into this category.

The bank wont have been 'sh*tting a brick' whether you'd spent under, over or bob on your limit; but you are absolutely right all accounts cards are monitored for their behaviour and if you do something particularly unusual then they should pick it up.

[ltd]

Aug 8, 2016 8:34:58 GMT Portland Road said:

A mixture. Larger purchases, e.g. household goods I use chip & pin. I also tend to use chip & pin when refuelling the car.

Everyday small items from local shops like milk etc I still pay in cash.

Likewise.

Contactless seems like an open invitation to fraud. The only time I use it is when I visit my brother in the Smoke and travel on the underground and/or buses. Not quite sure why I have to pay a fiver deposit for the pleasure of owning an Oyster card.

[barrythebook]

I withdraw a set amount of cash every week and that's what i spend.
I've lived buying everything by card before but found I was spending way more than if i use cash.

I'm probably going to sound old fashioned here but I've long thought that wages being paid monthly into a bank account rather than weekly in cash was the start of major debt problems for people.

Years ago, people spent what they had rather than borrow what they didn't.

[jno]

Aug 21, 2016 14:37:29 GMT barrythebook said:

I withdraw a set amount of cash every week and that's what i spend.
I've lived buying everything by card before but found I was spending way more than if i use cash.

I'm probably going to sound old fashioned here but I've long thought that wages being paid monthly into a bank account rather than weekly in cash was the start of major debt problems for people.

Years ago, people spent what they had rather than borrow what they didn't.

I think that's a very fair comment there btb and something I'd never considered tbh.

Now then, this week I've been out and about in The Republic of Ireland and being used to paying in Euros in Austria I started to notice that almost every shop I was in was keeping the loose 1 cent coin out of my change. Immediately I thought the Irish were fleecing me then I came across this in one shop nr Dublin today - legal rounding only for cash payments:



The choice of round up or round down depending solely on last digit of sale amount. This seems to be something I'd never 'erd of coming from another Euro country.

Is it just me as super tight-wad that thinks rounding 99 cents up to 1 Euro is underhanded money-making and a bit dodgy. I don't really agree with this unless it's agreed across all Euro countries myself. Imagine 5 thousand customers go through Tesco in a day? 50 Euro sovs for Tesco as they are too lazy to count small coins. If 80% of Irish don't like Euro shrapnel why'd they sign up for it then? What about the charity box?

When I started ranting today, Mrs jno tells me you can round up by 10 cents in Austria if you wish (I didn't know this) but extra cents are automatically donated to a children's charity which I thought is fair.

Pay by card in Ireland you are charged the EXACT amount on the bill.

All opinions on this but personally I wouldn't give Irish supermarkets anything especially as I know the likes of Tesco squeeze every last cent out of milk farmers (and wine makers in Hungary).

[barrythebook]

I'd never heard of this system before but coincidentally only 30mins ago Mrs Book and myself were watching 'Collateral' and we both commented on a notice in the back of the Taxi Cab stating that the driver only gives change in $5 bills therefore, i'd presume, always rounding the fare up and automatically keeping the difference.

I wouldn't mind the odd cent here and there but rounding up to the nearest $5 would have me watching the meter like a hawk with binoculars.

"That'll do driver. I'll walk the last 200 yards!"

[jno]

The thing is, this can clearly be fixed to end in that whacky rule about UP or DOWN and when all this rounding gets counted up I'm certain no benefits except for the taxman or the retailer. That 3, 4, 8, 9 rule is clearly meant to obfuscate proceedings in my opinion. 1 cent is a little amount to an individual but hoarded as a free extra with thousands of customers going through a point of sale, this is lot of free cash for the retailer.

Why 3, 4, 8, 9 anyway? Based on what logic or fact?

[Portland Road]

I think 'rounding' ultimately benefits the retailer. Evidently they avoid having to handle piddling amounts of change as well.

Aug 21, 2016 14:37:29 GMT barrythebook said:

 I've long thought that wages being paid monthly into a bank account rather than weekly in cash was the start of major debt problems for people.

Yes, I think this is a very good point.

[daz]

Aug 21, 2016 14:37:29 GMT barrythebook said:

I withdraw a set amount of cash every week and that's what i spend.
I've lived buying everything by card before but found I was spending way more than if i use cash.

I'm probably going to sound old fashioned here but I've long thought that wages being paid monthly into a bank account rather than weekly in cash was the start of major debt problems for people.

Years ago, people spent what they had rather than borrow what they didn't.

I'm loving the post Barry, my thinking exactly. We withdraw a set amount each week and live on it, you know where you are when you have cash in your pocket.

Also weekly wages were best, nothing better than getting your pay on a Friday, made Fridays special, now you look forward to one pay day a month, never liked it and never will.

[barrythebook]

Aug 22, 2016 19:51:06 GMT daz said:

Aug 21, 2016 14:37:29 GMT barrythebook said:

I withdraw a set amount of cash every week and that's what i spend.
I've lived buying everything by card before but found I was spending way more than if i use cash.

I'm probably going to sound old fashioned here but I've long thought that wages being paid monthly into a bank account rather than weekly in cash was the start of major debt problems for people.

Years ago, people spent what they had rather than borrow what they didn't.

I'm loving the post Barry, my thinking exactly. We withdraw a set amount each week and live on it, you know where you are when you have cash in your pocket.

Also weekly wages were best, nothing better than getting your pay on a Friday, made Fridays special, now you look forward to one pay day a month, never liked it and never will.

Cheers Daz, great minds etc.

I still get paid weekly, the company I work for gives you the option of weekly or monthly, and it suits me down to the ground.
Mrs Book has just changed jobs and now gets paid weekly too.
Previously she was paid on the last Friday of each month meaning that it wasn't uncommon to go 5 weeks between pay packets.
This could easily lead many people to rely on credit cards or short term loans etc. and that's when the financial trouble could easily start

[jno]

Undoubtedly this is a method that clearly works, but I also think this is down to personal responsibility as well.

Money management is a skill that is simply not taught in schools and the principles of "can't afford it thus can't have it" and "you reap what you sow" I feel are not promoted enough anymore. How many times have I seen folks on the telly claiming to he living on the breadline and while in their house they have a full Sky subscription and a 60" TV?

It is tough to discuss this without getting too political but the point is - I feel there is a line between necessity and luxury and for some people sadly it has become too blurred.

[daz]

Aug 23, 2016 4:59:40 GMT jno said:

Undoubtedly this is a method that clearly works, but I also think this is down to personal responsibility as well.

Money management is a skill that is simply not taught in schools and the principles of "can't afford it thus can't have it" and "you reap what you sow" I feel are not promoted enough anymore. How many times have I seen folks on the telly claiming to he living on the breadline and while in their house they have a full Sky subscription and a 60" TV?

It is tough to discuss this without getting too political but the point is - I feel there is a line between necessity and luxury and for some people sadly it has become too blurred.

It's a difficult one to answer, but I was brought up in a very poor home, in a fairly poor part of Aberdeen so knowing the value of money has always been very important to me. We didn't have much, but we got by and we never asked for much, but it must be harder now than ever if you come from a poorer home as we are undoubtedly living in a consumer society, and even harder if you have kids, as the pressure on them to have the latest everything is immense. I was lucky when I went to school as most of us were in the same boat.

[barrythebook]

Aug 23, 2016 4:59:40 GMT jno said:

Undoubtedly this is a method that clearly works, but I also think this is down to personal responsibility as well.

Money management is a skill that is simply not taught in schools and the principles of "can't afford it thus can't have it" and "you reap what you sow" I feel are not promoted enough anymore. How many times have I seen folks on the telly claiming to he living on the breadline and while in their house they have a full Sky subscription and a 60" TV?

It is tough to discuss this without getting too political but the point is - I feel there is a line between necessity and luxury and for some people sadly it has become too blurred.

I know what you're saying jno and agree with you. I don't really know what the answer is but I do think that having your wage every seven days rather than every 28, sometimes 35 (just to save employers administration costs), makes money management easier.
As you say though, 'personal responsibility' must play a big part.

[SunRayD]

Cash. Never, NEVER, contactless.

[jno]

More contactless misery in today's Daily Mail:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3779910/Thousands-contactless-cards-lost-stolen-warned-fraudsters-use-EIGHT-MONTHS-cancelled.html

[Arch Stanton]

Sept 8, 2016 16:43:29 GMT jno said:

More contactless misery in today's Daily Mail:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3779910/Thousands-contactless-cards-lost-stolen-warned-fraudsters-use-EIGHT-MONTHS-cancelled.html

A negative story from the daily mail, well I never!

[KarinB]

Aug 21, 2016 20:10:46 GMT jno said:

Now then, this week I've been out and about in The Republic of Ireland and being used to paying in Euros in Austria I started to notice that almost every shop I was in was keeping the loose 1 cent coin out of my change. Immediately I thought the Irish were fleecing me then I came across this in one shop nr Dublin today - legal rounding only for cash payments:



The choice of round up or round down depending solely on last digit of sale amount. This seems to be something I'd never 'erd of coming from another Euro country.

Is it just me as super tight-wad that thinks rounding 99 cents up to 1 Euro is underhanded money-making and a bit dodgy. I don't really agree with this unless it's agreed across all Euro countries myself. Imagine 5 thousand customers go through Tesco in a day? 50 Euro sovs for Tesco as they are too lazy to count small coins. If 80% of Irish don't like Euro shrapnel why'd they sign up for it then? What about the charity box?

When I started ranting today, Mrs jno tells me you can round up by 10 cents in Austria if you wish (I didn't know this) but extra cents are automatically donated to a children's charity which I thought is fair.

Pay by card in Ireland you are charged the EXACT amount on the bill.

All opinions on this but personally I wouldn't give Irish supermarkets anything especially as I know the likes of Tesco squeeze every last cent out of milk farmers (and wine makers in Hungary).

You've got to round up or down in Australia with cash because 5 cents is our smallest coin but retailers still advertise products at $1.99 or odd inbetween figures. They round up or down depending what's closest.
Some large retailers conduct charity drives and at times the shop assistants have to ask every customer if they are happy to round their purchase up to the nearest dollar (which is a lot) to contribute to the favoured charity.
'They' even make us ask if it is a creditcard payment. I hate asking in my part time job. And sometimes I don't ask even though I am supposed to. It displays on the register when we ring up a sale and we have to click yes or no for the rounding to occur.

The department store does send all these proceeds to the advertised charity but they also advertise themselves as having given x amount to charity for the year.
Well in my opinion no they haven't ! Their customers have.  Hmm maybe I should have put this on Arch Stanton's ranting thread.