152 - Learning online vs the classroom, what's the best way?

[jno]

With a global pandemic on, many people have been forced to learn things online,  many parents drawn into home schooling with their kids.

The word e-learning has been around for ages, and 'Blended' seems to a mix of face-to-face with a mixture of the new. What sort of phrases are these anyway and who comes up with these words?

So, ultimately ... what's the best way to learn, do you think it's in a classroom with a teacher or do you embrace the new, and go online to learn in a better way there?

Is the old school for dinosaurs or is that just marketing patter from tech giants to start using their latest products? Can YouTube replace your teacher?

[Arch Stanton]

I went for other.
Depends on the student.

I personally would prefer face to face but I like interacting with people. Not everyone is the same as myself.

[barrythebook]

Nov 29, 2020 10:10:29 GMT Arch Stanton said:

Depends on the student.

I personally would prefer face to face interacting with people. 

I think it depends more on the teacher.

My 12 year old daughter really enjoys some subjects but doesn't like others and when I get talking to her about it, there's a definite pattern.

The subjects she enjoys are taught by teachers that she likes, finds easy to approach and who present the lessons in a friendly manner which includes and encourages pupil involvement.

The subjects she doesn't enjoy are taught by, what sound like (from her description), impatient, snappy, short tempered teachers who she's nervous to talk to if she doesn't understand a certain topic.

During lockdown, she completed the online work that she was assigned but it was minimal and she's yet to have any feedback so imo it was pretty pointless.
'Zoom' lessons were also undertaken but the pupils were told to mute their phones and 'just listen' so no interaction at all, merely a box ticking exercise.

'Zoom' and online learning can work fine if conducted properly and the same goes for the classroom imo.

[jno]

I think it's two-fold:

• Arch is right when he says depends on the learner - if somebody REALLY wants to learn something,  I think they'll absorb any teaching method, even if it is a DIY solution on YouTube 
• The teacher's role as motivator and moderator, not just instructor is more evident than ever with home learning - the teacher has to be fully trained in online learning as it's different to the real classroom setting, and many have no idea how to do this, especially overnight 

I trained as a teacher back in the 90s, and the key point to ensuring knowledge transfer was regular intermittent assessment i.e. teacher/student interaction by stopping for 2-way Q&A - it's also good to reflect on yourself, as babbling on for too long can bore students, just like this post is boring you now!



If teachers just use online tools as a "blah blah blah" exercise then it soon becomes an uninspiring festival of bore for young people, with no interaction making it way worse than being in the classroom.

Also, I'm pretty certain a lot of teachers can't do netiquette very well, with some so unable to use the technology they shouldn't really be on it. Then we have the other side of the coin where teachers are so wrapped up in one system, they can't be objective and forget that everyone is not as good as they them at it but they should be - telling kids to do stuff they haven't shown them.

Also kids and PCs? Leave it out grandad, I swipe phones and tablets. Windows on a keyboard? Ha, young kids are worse than ever on PCs.

A PC? 

Despite having arrived 25 years ago, I can see people are still struggling with the Office apps in 2020, so why so many people think they can be expert teachers overnight using Teams or Zoom is a fantasy. Also, relying on technology is a big no no, you know it'll break down when you need it.

I compare teaching on Teams and Zoom to driving. Before people are let loose in cars they have to learn to drive and be proficient. To expect teachers to be good using online tools based on "lockdown on Monday next week" is complete fantasy. It also means three times the work for the teacher,  preparing, uploading and as barrythebook mentions doing online feedback... a real bugbear for teachers usually armed only with a red pen.

Example: submit a Word document.  How many teachers  (or students) can use Word's "add comment" and/or review/track changes feature? I never met ONE!! Just marking means sitting in front of a screen for hours and teachers aren't used to this  They stand up in rooms and mark paper, not stuff sent electronically.

Also, honestly, school kids might have 1 window open on their screen, but anyone 16+ is more than likely to understand the concept of multitasking. Even jno junior at the age of 10 has a Teams chat running alongside her online class, why? It's more fun than the teacher. Multitasking = not concentrating on 1 window = distraction from main feature. Put lights, bells and switches in front of kids, they will be tempted to flick or switch them.

Personally I have always thought elearning is massively overrated and when you look at how much learning actually takes place with a majority of people, it's very low. Only a minority of people who are massively self-motivated benefit. Most kids at the ages of 7-16 will not be like this though, and many need a motivator for schoolwork.

So, I chose teacher. It's far better as for most as it's simply more engaging (when it's an interesting teacher). For most people, elearning is for the birds, teachers and students. Don't believe the MS or Zoom marketing telling you otherwise,  but sadly many headteachers lap it up because they think it's trendy.

Also school is an experience more than just content, where you socially interact with others for real. Online can never compete with REAL face to face 'social networking'. You learn some life skills, develop a routine and a work ethic. Stumbling out of bed for a Teams or Zoom class in your pyjamas doesn't achieve this.

My point is, always consider the outcome and question "how much learning has actually taken place today?" when comparing. 

[KarinB]

This topic relates very much to my work. Sorry jno, I'll rant for a while. 
Teachers and lecturers have insisted for years that libraries hold an enormous collection of specialist subject books that they claim are essential reading for their students. Now don't get me wrong, I love an extensive library collection and buying new publications annually is essential to provide and communicate material freely to students but the pigheadedness of some academics who insist that physical books must be bought instead of an Ebook has meant that the 2020 change to Zoom classes gave university librarians the enormous task of sourcing Ereadings to replace all the physical books that were on reading lists for every subject.

So my view on Eresources is to embrace it, the Ebook, open access collections  free and minimal cost up to date, current and past publications for access anywhere and everywhere. Libraries are a world of physical books and Eresources so off campus patrons can read weekly readings from home while they balance work/life/study. 

My view on online learning is that it can be done because we all did it in 2020. Yes, with varying degrees of success.
Some people learn best visually, orally, independently or in a classroom environment. Online is not the best for everyone and unless it is a short course the monotomy of online learning can kill the joy of learning. I agree with the other posts that the passion and technical skills of the teacher will determine the success of the online lesson.  Primary and secondary students need the social skills learnt in a classroom environment. 
 
Ok I've bored you all now. Lol 

University courses should be a 50/50 split between the classroom and online teaching. This forces everyone to upskill their technical abilities which will help them in the workforce later and give them the best of both worlds. My workplace offered ample training (when I was on campus) but when I was there I always found excuses for not going to the scheduled classroom sessions! This year I had to attend the online sessions to find out how to connect with work mates on Zoom, Teams etc. and it worked.  So half and half for the adults, and mainly classroom face to face for the kids is my vote. 

Being online 9-5 for work has meant I have avoided online as entertainment outside work. With restrictions eased now in Australia (apart from greater Sydney) more choices and a day a week in at work has been a welcome change.

[Arch Stanton]

Dec 29, 2020 12:05:45 GMT KarinB said:

This topic relates very much to my work. Sorry jno, I'll rant for a while. 
Teachers and lecturers have insisted for years that libraries hold an enormous collection of specialist subject books that they claim are essential reading for their students. Now don't get me wrong, I love an extensive library collection and buying new publications annually is essential to provide and communicate material freely to students but the pigheadedness of some academics who insist that physical books must be bought instead of an Ebook has meant that the 2020 change to Zoom classes gave university librarians the enormous task of sourcing Ereadings to replace all the physical books that were on reading lists for every subject.

So my view on Eresources is to embrace it, the Ebook, open access collections free and minimal cost up to date, current and past publications for access anywhere and everywhere. Libraries are a world of physical books and Eresources so off campus patrons can read weekly readings from home while they balance work/life/study. 

My view on online learning is that it can be done because we all did it in 2020. Yes, with varying degrees of success.
Some people learn best visually, orally, independently or in a classroom environment. Online is not the best for everyone and unless it is a short course the monotomy of online learning can kill the joy of learning. I agree with the other posts that the passion and technical skills of the teacher will determine the success of the online lesson.  Primary and secondary students need the social skills learnt in a classroom environment. 
 
Ok I've bored you all now. Lol 

University courses should be a 50/50 split between the classroom and online teaching. This forces everyone to upskill their technical abilities which will help them in the workforce later and give them the best of both worlds. My workplace offered ample training (when I was on campus) but when I was there I always found excuses for not going to the scheduled classroom sessions! This year I had to attend the online sessions to find out how to connect with work mates on Zoom, Teams etc. and it worked.  So half and half for the adults, and mainly classroom face to face for the kids is my vote. 

Being online 9-5 for work has meant I have avoided online as entertainment outside work. With restrictions eased now in Australia (apart from greater Sydney) more choices and a day a week in at work has been a welcome change.

Just one quick question, if it goes to e-learning how will I be able to throw things at Wiggins when the teacher’s back is turned?

[jno]

You'll just have to behave Arch, which I know will be a first.



jno junior has Teams classes, the new equivalent to monkeying about in class is a private chat without the teacher in the team, while said teach goes blah blah as they have no idea how to conduct an online session effectively and might as well be talking to themselves.

[Arch Stanton]

Dec 29, 2020 16:36:50 GMT jno said:

You'll just have to behave Arch, which I know will be a first.

😇


Okay so we’ve established in this thread that we mostly agree on some things:
1) People learn better in different ways.
2) Not all teachers are capable of using technology to it’s maximum potential.

Would it be fair to say that children who are not engaged will do more badly when watching classes by zoom/teams/webex whatever, than they would in an actual classroom?
Where if they aren’t engaged you can at least throw something at them or hit them with something.

Surely learning engagement is key and wouldn’t the less engagement you had as a teacher (or pupil) be likely to yield lesser results?

So surely 121, F2F is ultimately best.

E.G.
One-to-one learning face to face, would be optimal for most people.
Then face-to-face in a class.
Then face-to-face via technology.
Then something interactive like say a learning track on a computer program.
Then say reading from books or diagrams.
Then having it explained as a recording by someone who doesn’t really know what they’re on about.
Etc etc.


I dunno guys, you’re the teachers, not me.
Does what I’m saying make sense or not?

Are these technology classes smaller numbers?
So where you might have had 30 in a class it’s only six by zoom?

[Arch Stanton]

Also if you are going to be going through the motions on zoom with all these teachers, some of whom have no capability or skill set at all to teach that way, why not just pre-record all the lessons from a super-teacher that’s really engaging online when they teach?

“Hi kids, today were going to talk about four course crop rotation.... Yay!”

You could sack teachers then and make them all go out and get proper jobs like real people have to do.*

I mean why would you even need a sports teacher when you’ve got that ***t Joe Wicks?

If you had say a few children not responding to the learning then you get a teacher to go one on one (or one on four, or whatever) with them get them up to speed with more intensive teaching.


*sorry that’s me misbehaving again. I don’t really mean that. I do apologise, I just can’t help myself.

[jno]

Has Joe Wicks got a proper job?

 

I heard Wicks got accepted for UK discount store Proper Job on a zero hours contract (his mum applied through the website: www.properjob.biz ) but apparently  he couldn't handle meeting people for real, so he decided to do narcissistic videos instead, and call himself a national hero for prancing about in front of a video camera everyday. Is he still living at his mum's house?

"Look, you're all fat, and I'm the saviour fat shamer who proclaims I'm the best PE teacher there is because I'm on YouTube I am". Yeah, whatever Joe, you got your City & Guilds in turning a camera off and on, good for you mate.

Joe Wicks's daily commute is all of what? 10 metres? The lazy get. Seriously, Joe Wicks can jog on. Does he even exist, or is he some fake hologram that appears on screens using AI?

Has anyone actually ever seen Joe Wicks off screen?

[Arch Stanton]

Dec 30, 2020 5:49:19 GMT jno said:

Has Joe Wicks got a proper job?

 

I heard Wicks got accepted for UK discount store Proper Job on a zero hours contract (his mum applied through the website: www.properjob.biz ) but apparently  he couldn't handle meeting people for real, so he decided to do narcissistic videos instead, and call himself a national hero for prancing about in front of a video camera everyday. Is he still living at his mum's house?

"Look, you're all fat, and I'm the saviour fat shamer who proclaims I'm the best PE teacher there is because I'm on YouTube I am". Yeah, whatever Joe, you got your City & Guilds in turning a camera off and on, good for you mate.

Joe Wicks's daily commute is all of what? 10 metres? The lazy get. Seriously, Joe Wicks can jog on. Does he even exist, or is he some fake hologram that appears on screens using AI?

Has anyone actually ever seen Joe Wicks off screen?

I know nothing about him.
I just heard his name. It kept being pushed during Lockdown 1.
I don’t think he has a proper job. I think he just does a few exercises.
I bet he’s really boring.
I wonder how much money he makes off advertising?

Joe, if you’re reading this, “Grow a pair of moobs like a real man. Stop prancing about in a leotard as if you’re Mad Lizzie and get a proper ****ing job.”

That told him jno.

[chopper]

As Barry the Book says, it can depend on subject and teacher quite significantly.
The problem with on line is that you can see or read something incorrectly and that is that, you won’t “see it” differently.
The same can be said for hearing, and that applies in the classroom, or hearing a virtual class. I am hard of hearing myself, and can sometimes miss hear things.
I often use the subtitles for Teams etc when at work.

[Arch Stanton]

Dec 30, 2020 13:36:31 GMT chopper said:

As Barry the Book says, it can depend on subject and teacher quite significantly.
The problem with on line is that you can see or read something incorrectly and that is that, you won’t “see it” differently.
The same can be said for hearing, and that applies in the classroom, or hearing a virtual class. I am hard of hearing myself, and can sometimes miss hear things.
I often use the subtitles for Teams etc when at work.

I hadn’t even thought about disabled people Chopper.

Online learning must be so much easier for those with mobility problems.

As well, if you were blind for instance, you wouldn’t even need to harness up your guide dog to get to college, you could just stay at home and do your lesson.

I wonder if Joe Wick does exercises for the blind? If not he should do a workout program for them.
Exercises for wheelchair users etc
Like a full on disabled section on his website.
Everybody’s disabled these days, he could make a killing out of that.

[jno]

Dec 30, 2020 13:36:31 GMT chopper said:

As Barry the Book says, it can depend on subject and teacher quite significantly.
The problem with on line is that you can see or read something incorrectly and that is that, you won’t “see it” differently.
The same can be said for hearing, and that applies in the classroom, or hearing a virtual class. I am hard of hearing myself, and can sometimes miss hear things.
I often use the subtitles for Teams etc when at work.

There's subtitles on Teams? Never knew that but good to know in case I ever have a teams meeting with Arch.

[Arch Stanton]

Dec 30, 2020 16:58:31 GMT jno said:

Dec 30, 2020 13:36:31 GMT chopper said:

As Barry the Book says, it can depend on subject and teacher quite significantly.
The problem with on line is that you can see or read something incorrectly and that is that, you won’t “see it” differently.
The same can be said for hearing, and that applies in the classroom, or hearing a virtual class. I am hard of hearing myself, and can sometimes miss hear things.
I often use the subtitles for Teams etc when at work.

There's subtitles on Teams? Never knew that but good to know in case I ever have a teams meeting with Arch.

You know how incredibly narcissistic I am jno.
Teams? There’s no I in team.

I’m out.

[barrythebook]

In view of these latest restrictions surrounding Covid, as of tomorrow Book Junior has online lessons with the involvement of teachers and classmates from 9am to 3pm Monday to Friday.

Personally I can't see this happening or working but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

[jno]

Jan 4, 2021 21:34:26 GMT barrythebook said:

In view of these latest restrictions surrounding Covid, as of tomorrow Book Junior has online lessons with the involvement of teachers and classmates from 9am to 3pm Monday to Friday.

Personally I can't see this happening or working but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

Please report back baz, I'd be interested to see if it works.

jno junior has three fixed online 'live' classes everyday: Maths, German & English. The English is a walk in the park which helps. These three subjects are considered 'core' across the whole of Austria.

All other subjects are done offline, exercise based where teacher uploads the exercises and pupils do them like they would standard "homework" with an upload deadline. Tbh, these homework only ones are the most laborious and ambiguous.

[wayne2467]

I think it depends on the subject certain things will be ok online whilst others would be better face to face

[jno]

[felixdeburgh]

Jan 4, 2021 21:34:26 GMT barrythebook said:

In view of these latest restrictions surrounding Covid, as of tomorrow Book Junior has online lessons with the involvement of teachers and classmates from 9am to 3pm Monday to Friday.

Personally I can't see this happening or working but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

Ours has been an utter disaster - tasks that should literally take 2 minutes are taking 20 because of there being 24 people involved. Plus, I’m supposed to assist my 7 year old autistic daughter with her online session at the same time as helping my 4 year old with her online lesson. How is that supposed to work? (That’s not a criticism of the teachers by the way, I know they’re doing their best).

[jno]

Jan 6, 2021 22:45:41 GMT felixdeburgh said:

Jan 4, 2021 21:34:26 GMT barrythebook said:

In view of these latest restrictions surrounding Covid, as of tomorrow Book Junior has online lessons with the involvement of teachers and classmates from 9am to 3pm Monday to Friday.

Personally I can't see this happening or working but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

Ours has been an utter disaster - tasks that should literally take 2 minutes are taking 20 because of there being 24 people involved. Plus, I’m supposed to assist my 7 year old autistic daughter with her online session at the same time as helping my 4 year old with her online lesson. How is that supposed to work? (That’s not a criticism of the teachers by the way, I know they’re doing their best).

I asked mrs jno (a teacher) about how timetables are planned for brothers and sisters at her school in different year groups. The answer was, there is no provision whatsoever and the teachers themselves are at the mercy of those above them doing the planning. She is told "just get on with it".

Certainly in Austria, the government make decisions about schools closing on a Saturday, with implementation of plans to be rolled out within 48 hrs. There is a massive divide in teachers' knowledge and skills using online teaching too, just like there is with regard to provision of equipment. It's ok for governments to say "yeah, get online" at the drop of a hat ... but the implementation of such throwaway statements is for the birds.

Also, teachers themselves have kids in schools. How are they supposed to be online AND their kids simultaneously? The problem of multiple users, pupils and teachers is a real problem for those with more than 1 child. If a couple are both teachers and have three kids I can't imagine they have a network of 5 PCs at home, and even then,  kids need guidance through many of the exercises. The whole model just doesn't work.

Thus I conclude,  e-learning is in practical terms, total cack and all it's really taught us, is how important it is that we have schools. It's ok alongside to catch up or develop skills but generally speaking, it can't replace a teacher and a school.

[ltd]

My 9 year old niece was pretty angry about the last lockdown. She loves going to school and missed seeing her friends, these aren't things you can factor into online learning. I reckons she's going to do her nut about the latest restrictions. Not good.

[jno]

Jan 9, 2021 17:11:58 GMT ltd said:

My 9 year old niece was pretty angry about the last lockdown. She loves going to school and missed seeing her friends, these aren't things you can factor into online learning. I reckons she's going to do her nut about the latest restrictions. Not good.

Absolutely. There are very few jobs where a person works on their own anymore. Even teachers work in parallel, teacher A teaches group 1 and teacher B teaches group 2. Getting along with people you work with and interacting with others is a skill also, and although there are no formal lessons on this, it comes as part and parcel of real social contact. Finding friends, socially interacting and discovering the different types of people only really comes from meeting them.

That said, working together online is also a skill that no one can really teach you. It can often take a lot more compromise than in real life. How do people get along when they haven't really met each other or only interact digitally? With sitting behind a keyboard, many see themselves as alone and use that dynamic as a sounding off position rather than a compromise and work together position. Eventually online non-team players slip up though and go too far - we've seen a great example with Twitter in the last few days that no one is above the rules.

One of the great things about things like this forum is, those with the skill to compromise and get along, realise that that is something good. There are others that can't ever get along with people online, and they usually end up leaving or getting kicked off and trying their luck elsewhere - which usually ends up in the same way at some point.

The point is about school though, with physically meeting others, lots of other skills are developed, although they ain't formally written in the curriculum.

[barrythebook]

Jan 5, 2021 9:26:07 GMT jno said:

Jan 4, 2021 21:34:26 GMT barrythebook said:

In view of these latest restrictions surrounding Covid, as of tomorrow Book Junior has online lessons with the involvement of teachers and classmates from 9am to 3pm Monday to Friday.

Personally I can't see this happening or working but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

Please report back baz, I'd be interested to see if it works.

jno junior has three fixed online 'live' classes everyday: Maths, German & English. The English is a walk in the park which helps. These three subjects are considered 'core' across the whole of Austria.

All other subjects are done offline, exercise based where teacher uploads the exercises and pupils do them like they would standard "homework" with an upload deadline. Tbh, these homework only ones are the most laborious and ambiguous.

So far, I would say this is a great idea in principle but rubbish in practice.
Book Junior is given links to certain subject lessons everyday which also need an access code from the tutor in order to begin the lesson and participate.
Regularly, the access code isn't posted in time which prevents the pupils from participating with the teacher,  so they then have to watch a generic video which very haphazardly, explains the lessons content and then expects them to go on and complete related questions and homework.

[jno]

... so it's basically down to teachers not being up to the task of doing stuff online then?

This has been the story of my life for 30 years. We go back to the 80s when I was a kid, how many teachers couldn't use the VHS video recorder? Fast forward to the 90s, my dad was a teacher,  "use a PC" he was told, "How?" he responded. 

In 2021, teachers are told "get online and do it all there" at which point they respond with "How?" Teams? Zoom? WTF is that?! They never taught me that at teacher training college? ... which is a fair point. Would you ask someone to drive others in a bus who hasn't passed their driving test? 

To be fair to teachers, they are not properly trained with the ethic of "you have to keep learning about technology". A lot love their subject, like geography or history or whatever but sit on their laurels and think IT is a problem for someone else to fix. The switch to online teaching has completely exposed the lack of skills they have in this area, and how little they have been trained in this area to keep up with what's going on.

Also, do they get support from their headteachers? Unlikely, and a lot of those headteachers are even older and less into technology themselves. Mrs jno's boss is 64 and can't use a pc for toffee.

I'm sure many teachers are interested in their subject, but not interested in how they might deliver it online as they just can't be bothered to learn new technology - extra work for them with no additional outcome (or income). Also, soon, covid will be over and they'll be back to chalk and talk.

[barrythebook]

As of yesterday, we changed the way Book junior does her work.
She's missing the company of her friends due to the current restrictions and it's beginning to show.
From yesterday, she logs in to her lessons (four a day), listens to the instructions, examples and explanations from the teacher and once that part of the lesson is over, we along with other parents, have agreed that the children can facetime each other whilst doing their work.
All the parents keep an eye out to make sure things remain sensible but the children can have good interaction and discuss and help each other with their work.
The difference in Book juniors attitude toward her work, output and willingness to get involved is massive.

[KarinB]

Jan 19, 2021 23:53:55 GMT barrythebook said:

...........once that part of the lesson is over, we along with other parents, have agreed that the children can facetime each other whilst doing their work.
All the parents keep an eye out to make sure things remain sensible but the children can have good interaction and discuss and help each other with their work.
The difference in Book juniors attitude toward her work, output and willingness to get involved is massive.

Good on you barrythebook. Brilliant idea. Small changes to provide some fun with friends in the day. 

[barrythebook]

Jan 22, 2021 7:04:04 GMT KarinB said:

Jan 19, 2021 23:53:55 GMT barrythebook said:

...........once that part of the lesson is over, we along with other parents, have agreed that the children can facetime each other whilst doing their work.
All the parents keep an eye out to make sure things remain sensible but the children can have good interaction and discuss and help each other with their work.
The difference in Book juniors attitude toward her work, output and willingness to get involved is massive.

Good on you barrythebook. Brilliant idea. Small changes to provide some fun with friends in the day. 

Thanks Karin, it's certainly paid off, you can see it in her general attitude toward the schoolwork and in herself.
All the children will benefit from chatting with each other on a social level too, I think it's important they keep in touch.

[jno]

Jan 22, 2021 18:52:24 GMT barrythebook said:

Jan 22, 2021 7:04:04 GMT KarinB said:

Good on you barrythebook. Brilliant idea. Small changes to provide some fun with friends in the day. 

Thanks Karin, it's certainly paid off, you can see it in her general attitude toward the schoolwork and in herself.
All the children will benefit from chatting with each other on a social level too, I think it's important they keep in touch.

This last part is very true barry - could I imagine myself at that age just stuck indoors with my parents for 9 months? It's tough going on kids being kept at home and I can see why parents are unnecessarily sending 'em in to school just for social chat and something to do. 

[bensonrad]

Best in school with teachers, homeschooling worked well to some degree, stressful for sure, but the lack of interaction with classmates was the main issue.